Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers

Achieving partnership was once the goal of most law firm associates. The rules were relatively simple. Work hard, do a good job, and after several years, get rewarded by being elevated. Today the law firms are more complex. Many associates entering the practice of law do not aspire to become partners, at least not at the first firm they join. And at many firms, there are different paths to success which don’t include equity partnership. So, how should a young associate navigate these new realities? What is the path to partnership in the 2020s and what are other ways to define success in private practice. How do you get there? What is the impact of hybrid work arrangements on career advancement and professional development? My guest Laura Terrell has some answers. Laura Terrell is an executive coach with over 25 years of professional experience as a legal and business leader. Prior to launching her coaching practice, Laura was a Special Assistant to the President at the White House, a senior level appointee at the US Department of Justice, an equity partner in two large global law firms, and in-house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm. Laura has led and managed teams of hundreds of people across multiple countries and has been a top advisor for many Fortune 500 and FTSE 100 companies. Her clients come from a wide variety of industries, including law, education, financial services, pharmaceutical, oil & gas, non-profit, health care, and technology. Some of them are senior corporate executives like CEOs and general counsels; others are lawyers and consultants, entrepreneurs, and small business owners, as well as professionals who may be returning to the workforce, making a pivot to a new career, or switching roles mid-career. Laura is my favorite kind of guest because she has such a broad perspective on the legal industry and has experienced legal careers from all sides. Additional Resources Episode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law Department Episode 73-Managing and Advancing Your Law Firm Career

Job interviews can cause a lot of stress. Over the years, I’ve come to appreciate that this is true whether you are the candidate or the interviewer. The stakes can feel high. Both sides are trying to assess whether they are right for each other. The candidate may be imagining that they are interviewing for their dream job. They may be worried about the competition. The interviewer may have a desperate need to fill a role and there are few candidates with the right mix of skills and personality. Or worse, they made a bad hire and they are now trying to fix the problem. But just like dating, neither side will really know what it is like to be married until they are actually living together. So what are some ways that candidates and employers can prepare for a good interview? What can candidates and interviewers do to make themselves more attractive to each other? How can candidates and employers get the information they need to make an informed decision about whether to extend an offer or accept an offer? In this episode, I have invited two seasoned recruiters who share their collective wisdom. Both are members of the in-house legal recruiting team at the search firm Major Lindsey and Africa. Amy Katz is a returning guest on Counsel to Counsel. Amy recently rejoined the team at Major Lindsey after spending a year recruiting in-house for her old employer Outside GC. I last spoke to Amy about her journey from big law to in-house to OutsideGC, and finally into recruiting. Amy’s career experience includes over 25 years as a practicing employment attorney. Prior to joining MLA the first time, Amy was a Member at Outside GC, advising employers on a wide range of employment law matters, conducting workplace and academic investigations, and designing and delivering compliance training. Before that, she served as senior employment counsel for Genzyme Corporation. Today, she focuses on recruiting general counsel and other in-house attorneys in a wide range of industries, most notably life sciences and technology. My second guest is Amy’s colleague, Nancy Reiner who spent over 20 years in private practice including stints at two major firms. She last served as a partner at Brown Rudnick where she worked on business, environmental and public interest litigation. Nancy has been in the legal search business since 2008. Today she is the leader of the Boston In-House Counsel Recruiting team for MLA where she focuses on placement of general counsel and other in-house counsel for public companies and private businesses, major global corporations and disruptive start-ups, hospital and other healthcare systems, and colleges and universities. Nancy has placed close to 100 senior-level leaders in corporate legal departments throughout New England and across the country. Additional Resources Tips for a Successful Job Interview-Live and Virtual Episode 5-Nailing the Job InterviewEpisode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy Katz

The Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Reader Rankings Awards are out, and I’m pleased to report that once again, I did very well. This year I came in first for Lawyer Outplacement and for Business Development Coach. I also came in second for Executive Coaching. So the subject of awards is top of mind for me this week. I’m happy to be in the winner’s circle and very thankful for the great clients and colleagues who took the time to support me. But do awards really matter? Listen in to this episode of Counsel to Counsel for my analysis.

It has been over a year since I finally left the legal recruiting business to focus exclusively on coaching. Since the market has changed a lot since early 2022, I thought this would be a good time to invite someone who is still in the business to talk about the state of legal hiring. I also thought this would be a good time to revisit the topic of legal recruiting in general and who can benefit from working with a recruiter. Emily Witt is a legal recruiter with over 20 years of experience. She began her career as an in-house recruiter for Wachtell, Lipton in New York. In 2016, she moved over to the agency side and today, she places attorneys in both law firm and in-house positions. In particular, she enjoys focusing on women's advancement in both tech and healthcare. Emily hosts the podcast, Beyond the Legal Lens, that helps open the door to jobs in tech and health law. She also has a platform, the Advocate's Mic, that highlights mission-driven attorneys who are creating impactful initiatives in their communities. Emily shares her wisdom on the state of legal hiring in 2023 and offers some tips about working with a recruiter.

In the last two episodes of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with a lawyer who left corporate practice for management consulting and a trial lawyer who has built a trial consulting business but continues to try cases. In this episode, I speak with a corporate lawyer who cut his teeth at international law firms, went in-house, moved into a business role, and is back again at an international law firm. Carl Berglind is a Shareholder with Greenberg Traurig’s Health Care & FDA group. He is based in Denver, Colorado. He focuses his practice on M&A and other complex transactions in the healthcare industry, representing both sellers and investors. In his business roles, Carl served as the CEO of an early stage animal health / AgTech company. He was also VP of M&A of a private equity backed ophthalmology platform, and Senior Vice President of Strategic Transactions at a Fortune 500 diversified health care services company. Carl was born in Sweden, and grew up in New York, Copenhagen, and Brussels. He speaks fluent Swedish and conversationally fluent French and Danish. He uses his background by working with international clients in addition to his domestic health care transactional practice. Additional Resources Episode 113-From Litigation to Trial Consulting with Marc DillerEpisode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David LesserEpisode 96-David Abromowitz-Practicing Law in the Public Interest at an AmLaw200 Firm

In Episode 112 of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with David Lesser, a corporate lawyer who transitioned into management consulting and quit his day job as a corporate lawyer. In this episode, I speak with a litigator who has transitioned into jury and trial consulting while keeping his day job as a litigator. Marc Diller is the managing partner of Diller Law, LLP. He concentrates his practice on plaintiff side wrongful death and catastrophic bodily injury cases. As a partner with Total Trial Solutions in Massachusetts, he also acts as a trial consultant to other well-respected trial attorneys. Marc serves on the Executive Committee for the Massachusetts Academy of Trial Attorney and as chair of the Judicial Administration Section Council of the Massachusetts Bar Association. He has been involved in some of the largest jury verdicts in the state of Massachusetts. Related Episodes Episode 112-From Corporate Counsel to Management Consultant-Leveraging Your Legal Career with David LesserEpisode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage LegalEpisode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)

When lawyers approach me to speak about their careers, one question they often ask is “what else can I do with my law degree”. The answer to that question is of course complex. As lawyers, we are trained to spot legal issues, evaluate risk, document deals, and litigate disputes. Most employers are not actively recruiting lawyers to do anything other than practice law. But that is not to say that lawyers are destined to be lawyers for eternity. As a lawyer, you do develop transferable skills that can make you valuable in other ways. The challenge, of course, is to figure out what that transition should look like and how you can best execute a job search when your resume speaks largely to the legal work you have done. One approach to find a bridge. Look for opportunities in an industry that you are already familiar with. Another approach is to take the experience you have in doing certain types of work and find something that leverages that experience. That is what my guest, David Lesser, did after a long and successful career as a corporate and finance attorney. David spent 17 years practicing in several large firms; but for the last several decades, he has run his own business consulting firm. He and I discuss how he made that transition, what were some of the challenges, what lessons he took from the practice of law, and what advice he has for anyone thinking of moving out of private practice. David Lesser is the founder and managing partner of the Klarian Capital Group in Chicago. He provides an array of management consulting services to small and middle market companies. He helps his clients with operational, financial, and strategic planning issues. I recently met Dave at a meeting of our ProVisors networking group and we soon discovered that we both grew up in the same town on Long Island. We also figured out that he was the water polo coach of one of the kids in my grade. More importantly, I was intrigued by the fact that he actually enjoyed being a lawyer when he left the practice. He didn’t run from the law. Addition Resources Episode 104-Freelance Lawyering and Returning to Work with Montage Legal Episode 103-Ben Sachs on Building High-Performance Legal Teams Episode 56-Practicing Law with a Side Hustle (“Mindful Return”)

Relationship building is the key to growing your practice. But who should you be focusing on when it comes to relationship building? In this episode, Steve Seckler explains how the acronym C.H.I.L.L. can help you to make smart choices in finding the "right" professional relationships to cultivate. Additional Resources Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael KatzEpisode 85-Peristence, Follow-Up, and Avoiding Fatal Attraction-Tips for Building Your Business Relationships Inexpensive Ways to Build Business Relationships

Like most lawyers, I went to law school because I wanted to enter an honorable profession. I wanted to have a career where the emphasis is on intellect and not on business. Not long after graduation, I realized that law IS a business and if you want to be successful, being a great lawyer is not enough. You need to learn how to run your practice efficiently. You need to learn how to manage people. And you need to learn how to sell your services. If you can master those skills, your chances of success will greatly increase. As I’ve noted many times on this program, sales is one area where many of us feel uncomfortable. As attorneys, we are supposed to be above that. People should hire us because we are good at what we do. In reality, that is not the way the world works. Just like practicing law requires a unique set of skills, so does selling our services. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Dominic and I discuss the business of law and some of the ways we can be more successful in our sales process. Dominic Grew is the Founder & Owner of Elevate Business Coaching, LLC. He is an expert in business management and business development. Prior to opening Elevate, he spent more than 25 years working internationally in the insurance and investment management sectors. As a former COO for Global Business Development, he learned how to scale to operational excellence and to prioritize and execute growth initiatives for complex and competing practice areas. Today, as Founder of Elevate Business Coaching, he partners with law firms and their lawyers to build, grow, and manage thriving practices. Dominic’s tools of choice are coaching, training and facilitation. He prides himself on bringing an outside perspective to the business of law, teaching attorneys to work smarter rather than harder to accomplish their business goals. Additional Resources Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael KatzEpisode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business

This episode was recorded during Well-Being Week in Law 2023. In Massachusetts and around the country, there are a lot of programs being offered to get lawyers thinking about the many mental health challenges that are widespread in the legal community. This particular week was designated to align with Mental Health Awareness Month which is May, and many organizations ran workshops and gatherings to talk about depression, substance abuse, anxiety, stress and a host of other topics. Underlying many of these issues is having too much to do and too little time to get it done. Many lawyers need tools for effectively managing their time and dealing with overwhelm. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, I spoke with Sarah Tetlow of Firm Focus who gave some great tips on delegation, dealing with interruptions, and generally managing our time more effectively. Sarah is an expert on the subject. Sarah is an experienced productivity consultant, trainer, and international speaker for attorneys and other busy professionals. Through one-on-one consulting, strategic planning, workshops, and group trainings, Sarah works with attorneys, law firms, and busy professionals to find personalized ways in which to manage one’s day with a proactive and focused approach. Sarah is also the creator of the ARTT® Email Productivity system and course which she discussed in this episode. Through Sarah’s passion for focused work and her unique and sympathetic coaching approach, she helps her clients change their behavior and reduce their stress and anxiety. Additional Resources Episode 97-What Law Firms Can Learn From Corporate America About Well-Being Episode 70-Shailini George on Doing Well and Being Well in the LawEpisode 64-Building Your Practice and Your Management Skills with Mindful Communication Episode 57- Billable Work v. Investment Hours (Dr. Sarah Reiff-Hekking on Time Management) Episode 37-Managing Anxiety in a Time of Crisis

In this Episode of Counsel to Counsel, I'm bringing you the feed from Steve Fretzin's great podcast, Be That Lawyer. Steve is an outstanding business development coach for attorneys. He is an author and friend who has taught me a lot about BD coaching. In this episode, Steve interviews me about why coaching can be a great tool to help lawyers achieve higher levels of career satisfaction and marketing success. I talk about one of my favorite topics: why lawyers need to wear a different hat when they are not giving out legal advice (and why that can be hard for some attorneys.) Steve has been a guest on Counsel to Counsel and this is my second time as a guest on Be That Lawyer. Steve has also been great about inviting me to participate on his panel of attorney coaches called Be That Lawyer Coaches Corner. He is a practitioner of co-opetition and very generous with his time. Additional Episodes Steve Seckler: Coaching to the Next Level Episode 44-Getting the Most from Networking Meetings and Troikas

I don’t spend a lot of time talking about technology on this podcast. But I use technology all the time to manage my business and to increase my marketing efficiency. In fact technology is a critical reason why I am able to operate as a solo and while I don’t have to outsource much of my own marketing. While I haven’t focused on technology on Counsel to Counsel, my interest in technology is actually high. And when the next shiny object comes into my consciousness, I’m often intrigued. In general, I’m not an early adopter. I’d rather let others do the beta testing. But in the four months since we heard about ChatGPT, I’ve been meaning to give it a try. And this month I finally did. And what I discovered blew me away. So I figured this was a good time to invite back Jared Correia, a legal tech guru who gave me my start in podcasting 5 years ago. Jared was last on Counsel to Counsel in 2020 when he spoke about podcasting as a marketing tool. You can hear him on Episode 34. Jared has also been kind enough to have me on both of his great podcasts, The Legal Toolkit which is sponsored by the Legal Talk Network, and the Non-eventcast Podcast hosted by Above the Law. Jared Correia is the founder & CEO of Red Cave Law Firm Consulting, which provides business management consulting to attorneys directly, and through partnerships with bar associations. He is also the cofounder & COO of Gideon Software, a technology company that offers chat-based intake, qualification, scheduling and document assembly services to law firms. And he was a pioneer in legal podcasting. Jared is all about helping law firms improve their operations and grow their businesses. Part of that includes helping lawyers be more effective in leveraging technology. He’s been a huge help to me as well when I have technology questions. Today, Jared will give a quick overview of ChatGPT and how it can help you streamline your marketing. And while I have him here, I’m going to pick Jared’s brain about other marketing. So today will be a high level overview of the tools that you should have to ensure marketing success. You should listen to the Non-Eventcast if you want to get a lot more depth. Additional Episodes Episode 34-Podcasting as a Legal Marketing ToolJared Correia on Counsel to Counsel How Coaching Can Help Attorneys Increase Career Satisfaction-Stephen Seckler on the Legal Toolkit Referral Marketing and Marketing Technology-Stephen Seckler on the ATL’s Non-Eventcast

Coaching is a field that has exploded since I graduated from law school in the late 1980s. There are now life coaches, business coaches, executive coaches, marketing coaches, career coaches, and coaches like me who borrow a little from each. Coaching is about achieving your goals and moving past roadblocks that are getting in the way of your success. A good coach is a sounding board and holds you accountable to your stated goals. But not every coach uses the same tools or focuses on the same things. My own focus is helping lawyers to stop thinking like a lawyer when they are not giving legal advice. In this episode, I speak with a career leadership coach who takes a different approach from my own. She talks about her approach to attorney coaching, why attorneys make good clients, and how she helps lawyers manage their energy to move towards their goals. Emily Hirsekorn is a certified career leadership coach who works with attorneys. She speaks regularly on authentic leadership, work-life balance, career fulfillment, confidence, and energy management. After earning her JD, she represented educational institutions in employment law and special education matters. She then left the practice to conduct anti-bias education, and soon after, moved into law school career development at the University of San Diego where she worked for six years. In 2020 Emily launched her coaching business and now lives in her hometown of Kansas City with her husband, two children, and two rescue pups She is passionate about disrupting outdated legal industry norms, advancing women in male-dominated industries, anti-bias education, and animal rescue. Additional Resources Energy Leadership Assessment (mentioned in the episode) Emily Hirsekorn's Career Accelerator for Lawyers Who Lead

In this episode, I'm very pleased to welcome back Kevin Agnew. I spoke with Kevin just about a year ago about his career path. We talked about the career services program he runs at one of the largest firms in the world, and he shared many pearls of wisdom for lawyers who are navigating their careers in private practice. If you haven’t heard it, you may want to go back and listen to Episode 83 first. Kevin Agnew is Director of Attorney Career Services at Latham and Watkins, an international law firm with almost 3000 lawyers. He runs the firm's career design program and oversees the global Alumni Program. In a confidential coaching environment. He works with attorneys on the full range of career issues. Kevin created the program and now offers services to attorneys at the firm, firm alumni, and friends of the firm. In this episode, we continue the conversation we started and focus more on what success looks like in private practice. Additional Resources Episode 83-Career Services at Latham & Watkins-How One Law Firm is Creating New Models for SuccessEpisode 91-Transitioning Your Legal Career to In-house and Beyond With Amy KatzTake Steve Seckler's career assessment and sign up for a complimentary discovery session Career Paths: Mapping Out Your Future (Program Notes from a Boston Bar Association Panel Discussion)

I really enjoy stories about lawyers who have taken their careers on a less traditional path. I especially enjoy speaking with lawyers who have done some very unlawyerly and more entrepreneurial things. At the same time, I’m always looking for guests who can speak to my audience about alternative ways to practice, particularly when it involves better work life balance. My guest in this episode, Erin Giglia, has deep knowledge about both subjects. Erin practiced at several major firms in Southern California until she co-founded Montage Legal Group in 2009. Montage Legal Group is a nationwide network of experienced contract/freelance attorneys with impressive credentials from top law schools and training in prestigious law firms. Montage’s attorneys assist law firms with temporary and substantive legal projects on an hourly basis, providing a cost-effective way to manage case overflow. Erin talks about building her business. She also discusses how lawyers, particularly women, can get back into the work force after an extended break.

In this episode, I speak with Ben Sachs of the Landing Group. Ben is the author of a terrific new book entitled: All Rise-Practical Tools for Building High-performance Legal Teams. In the conclusion of the book Ben writes: For many attorneys, the legal work is their comfort zone. They would rather be consumed by case law, deal papers, policy memos, or other traditional billable tasks then have to navigate a tricky issue of team dynamics or dysfunction. In this episode, Ben addresses those issues head on and why good leaders need to change these attitudes. He also talks about his own alternative legal career. Ben Sachs is President of The Landing Group. He is an expert in management, strategy, negotiation, and communication. He serves on the teaching faculty of the University of Virginia School of Law, offering courses on negotiation, public speaking, and legal ethics. Ben also provides consulting and training services for government and private sector organizations in the United States and internationally. His past clients cover a wide range of industries, from law firms to telecommunications providers to retail and more. Additional Resources 15 Tips For Leadership SuccessEpisode 80-Leadership for Lawyers-Moving Up in Your Law Firm or Corporate Law DepartmentEpisode 89-Carol Marzouk-The Executive Lion Tamer

In this episode, I'm coming off of a string of marketing successes. Therefore, instead of interviewing someone else, I've decided to share my experiences. The Reader's Digest version is that most lawyers who achieve marketing success do so through a variety of channels. The important thing is to choose the channels where you'll find your clients and referral sources. But it is equally important to choose activities that you like. In the end, you won't be able to predict which ones will work and which ones won't. And that is to be expected. Related Episodes Episode 100-Word of Mouth Marketing with Michael KatzEpisode 79-Digital Marketing for Your Law Firm: Getting the Right MixEpisode 74-Turning Business Conversations into BusinessEpisode 63-LinkedIn in 30 Minutes (with Kristyn Brophy)Episode 44-Getting the Most from Networking Meetings and Troikas

When I work with lawyers who are doing career exploration, I always encourage them to have informational interviews with attorneys who can give them some perspective. The lawyers who have the best career perspective are attorneys who have varied work experience. My guest, Linda Ricci, is an attorney who has A LOT of that perspective. Linda Ricci is a partner with the law firm Greenberg Traurig which she joined in the Spring of 2021. Prior to that, she spent 15 years as an Assistant United States Attorney in Boston. Linda began her legal career with two federal court clerkships, worked for two other major law firms, and spent two years as in-house counsel prior to joining the US Attorney’s office. Today, she focuses her practice on white collar criminal defense, including matters related to corporate compliance, internal investigations, and government investigations. I invited Linda to talk about the career lessons she has learned working in several public sector jobs, three different law firms, and a stint in-house. Additional Resources Episode 78-Transitioning to General Counsel-Career Lessons from a LitigatorEpisode 50-A Late Career Shift to Public ServiceEpisode 38-Breaking the Glass Ceiling on a Part-time Schedule

In this episode, Michael Katz, returns to Counsel to Counsel after a 3 year hiatus. In 2019, Michael and I spoke about how to use newsletters as an effective marketing tool. Check out Episode 29 of this podcast. Newsletters have only grown in value, especially during the pandemic when in-person marketing went away. As many of us have resumed in-person activities, however, live relationship building is moving back to center stage. Of course it never truly went away and Zoom made sure of that. But more than ever, we now have the chance to build strong referral relationships by participating in activities that we enjoy. One of the challenges of relationship building is how to stay top of mind so that our prospective clients and referral sources will think of us when they hear about an opportunity that is right for us. If you are like me, it is easy to deliver a lengthy discourse when someone asks what you do. In all likelihood, you do a lot of things. And some of those things are actually hard to explain. While a lengthy discourse may be effective when you are making a closing argument in a $200 million dollar theft of trade secrets case, it’s probably not effective for generating referrals. So how do you make a lasting impression on someone so they will tell someone else to call you? Michael Katz has some great tips on that very subject. Michael Katz is an award-winning humorist and former corporate marketer. His company is Blue Penguin Development and he is founder and Chief Penguin. Michael specializes in coaching professional service firms and solos in improving their marketing. Since launching Blue Penguin in 2000, Michael has been quoted in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Business Week Online, Bloomberg TV, Forbes.com, Inc.com, USA Today, and other national and local media. He is the author of four books and over the past 20+ years has published more than 500 issues of “The Likeable Expert Gazette,” a twice-monthly email newsletter and podcast with 6,000 passionate subscribers in over 40 countries around the world. And he is someone I have learned a lot from through our business networking group ProVisors. Additional Resources Episode 29-How Newsletters Can Set You Apart From the Competition Episode 74-Turning Business Conversations into Business Episode 44-Getting the Most From Networking Meetings and Troikas Making Introductions that Generate Referrals

The pandemic was a mixed bag for me. As some of my listeners know, both of my parents died of COVID in April 2020. While that was very sad, it wasn’t tragic. My dad was 95, my mom was 94, neither suffered, and neither knew the other one was gone. At the same time, the lockdown created some great new opportunities to expand my network both here in New England and throughout the country. Zoom existed long before COVID. But going on-line in March of 2020 dramatically expanded my professional connections. Through my ProVisors business network, I met hundreds of great professionals in every corner of the United States. I now coach clients in New England, New York, Texas, South Carolina, Chicago, California, and Seattle. Beyond that, I’ve also met some other great people thanks to virtual platforms including today’s guest Rudy Rivera. Rudy is Chief International Counsel at Fidelity National Financial. He has extensive international litigation and business experience in Latin America, Europe, and Asia. I reached out to Rudy after listening in on one of his live streaming presentations. The subject was leadership and Rudy and his guest did a great job of offering some very practical advice. I reached out to Rudy afterwards to thank him, and he responded right away. He suggested that we speak and soon after we did. Since that time, I have listened in on a number of Rudy’s shows, Conversations With Rudy Rivera, and we have spoken about his career, his humble beginnings, and what it is like to manage counsel around the globe. I thought his story would be of great interest to my audience. In this episode, Rudy tells his story and offers up some great career advice for younger lawyers.