Decoder with Nilay Patel

The Supreme Court has just taken on the entire idea of the US administrative state — and the Court is winning. Earlier this month, a conservative majority overturned a longstanding legal principle called Chevron deference. The implications are enormous for every possible kind of regulation — and net neutrality looks poised to be the first victim. Verge editor Sarah Jeong joins me to explain why. Links: Supreme Court overrules Chevron, kneecapping federal regulators | The Verge What SCOTUS just did to broadband, the right to repair, the environment, and more | The Verge FCC votes to restore net neutrality | The Verge Reinstatement of net neutrality rules temporarily halted by appeals court | The Verge Clarence Thomas' 38 Vacations: The Other Billionaires Who Have Treated the Supreme Court Justice to Luxury Travel | ProPublica The Supreme Court's coming war with Joe Biden | Vox Transcript: Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Rivian founder and CEO RJ Scaringe. RJ was on the show last September when we chatted at the Code Conference, but the past 10 months have seen a whirlwind of change throughout the car industry and at Rivian in particular. This year alone, the company unveiled five new models in its lineup and also just announced a $5 billion joint venture with Volkswagen. We got into all that and more. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ve heard me talk to a lot of car CEOs on the show, but it’s rare to talk to a car company founder, and RJ was game to talk about basically anything — even extremely minor feature requests I pulled from the forums. It’s a fun one. Links: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder VW will invest up to $5 billion in Rivian as part of new EV joint venture | The Verge Rivian blazed a trail with its adventure EVs — can it stay on top? | The Verge Rivian R2 revealed: a $45,000 electric off-roader for the masses | The Verge Rivian surprises with R3 and R3X electric SUVs | The Verge Rivian puts its Georgia factory plans on pause | The Verge Rivian’s R1 vehicles are getting a gut overhaul | The Verge Rivian R1S review: king of the mountain | The Verge Rivian’s long, narrow road to profit | WSJ Tesla’s Share of U.S. Electric Car Market Falls Below 50% | NYT Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23965790 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week I’m talking to Matthew Ball, who was last on the show in 2022 to talk about his book “The Metaverse: How it Will Revolutionize Everything.” It’s 2024 and it’s safe to say that has not happened yet. But Matt’s still on the case — in fact he just released an almost complete update of the book, now with the much more sober title, “Building the Spatial Internet.” Matt and I talked a lot about where the previous metaverse hype cycle landed us, and what there is to learn from these boom and bust waves. We talked about the Apple Vision Pro quite a bit; if you read or watched my review when it came out, you’ll know I think the Vision Pro is almost an end point for one set of technologies. I wanted to know if Matt felt the same and what needs to happen to make all of this more mainstream and accessible. Links: Fully revised and updated edition to the “The Metaverse” | W.W. Norton Apple Vision Pro review: magic, until it’s not | The Verge Apple’s Vision Pro: five months later | Vergecast Is the metaverse going to suck? A conversation with Matthew Ball | Decoder Interviewing Meta CTO Andrew Bosworth on the Metaverse, VR/AR, AI | Matthew Ball Interviewing Epic CEO Tim Sweeney and author Neal Stephenson | Matthew Ball An Interview with Matthew Ball about Vision Pro and the state of gaming | Stratechery Tim Sweeney explains how the metaverse might actually work | The Verge Fortnite is winning the metaverse | The Verge Is the Metaverse Just Marketing? | NYT Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Arati Prabhakar, the director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy. That’s a cabinet-level position, where she works as the chief science and tech advisor to President Biden. Arati and her team of about 140 people at the OSTP are responsible for advising the president on not only big developments in science but also about major innovations in tech, much of which come from the private sector. Her job involves guiding regulatory efforts, government investment, and setting priorities around big-picture projects like Biden’s cancer moonshot and combating climate change. More recently, Arati has been spending a lot of time talking about the future of AI and semiconductors, so I had the opportunity to dig into both of those topics with her as the generative AI boom continues and the results of the CHIPS Act become more visible. One note before we start: I sat down with Arati last month, just a couple of days before the first presidential debate and its aftermath, which swallowed the entire news cycle. So you’re going to hear us talk a lot about President Biden’s agenda and the White House’s policy record on AI, among other topics. But you’re not going to hear anything about the president, his age, or the presidential campaign. Links: Biden’s top science adviser resigns after acknowledging demeaning behavior | NYT Teen girls confront an epidemic of deepfake nudes in schools | NYT Senate committee passes three bills to safeguard elections from AI | The Verge The RIAA versus AI, explained | The Verge Lawyers say OpenAI could be in real trouble with Scarlett Johansson | The Verge Barack Obama on AI, free speech, and the future of the internet | Decoder Meet the Woman Who Showed President Biden ChatGPT | WIRED Biden releases AI executive order | The Verge Biden’s science adviser explains the new hard line on China | WashPo Where the CHIPS Act money has gone | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23961278 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking to Nicholas Thompson, the CEO of The Atlantic. I was really excited to talk to Nick. Like so many media CEOs, including Vox Media’s, he just signed a deal allowing OpenAI to use The Atlantic’s vast archives as training data, but he also has a rich background in tech. Before he was the CEO of The Atlantic, Nick was the editor-in-chief of Wired, where he set his sights on AI reporting well before anyone else. I was also really interested in asking Nick about the general sense that the AI companies are getting vastly more than they’re giving with these sorts of deals — yes, they’re paying some money, but I’ve heard from so many of you that the money might now be the point — that there’s something else going on here – that maybe allowing creativity to get commodified this way will come with a price tag so big money can never pay it back. If there is anyone who could get into it with me on that question, it’s Nick. Links: Vox Media and The Atlantic sign content deals with OpenAI | The Verge Journalists “deeply troubled” by OpenAI’s content deals with Vox, The Atlantic | Ars Technica What the RIAA lawsuits mean for AI and copyright | The Verge Perplexity plagiarized our story about how Perplexity Is a bullshit machine | Wired How to stop Perplexity and save the web from bad AI | Platformer The text file that runs the internet | The Verge OpenAI, WSJ owner News Corp strike content deal valued at over $250 Million | WSJ The media bosses fighting back against AI — and the ones cutting deals — WashPo The New York Times spent $1 million so far in its OpenAI lawsuit | The Verge AI companies have all kinds of arguments against paying for copyrighted content | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Canva got its start more than a decade ago as a different form of disruptive tech for creatives. It’s a web-based platform that makes design tools cheaper and accessible for individuals, schools, and businesses from tiny to enterprise. Melanie has big goals to grow the company — and try to do good in the process. Links: Canva tackled digital design — and now the office suite is next | The Verge Canva Inks Deals With Warner Music Group, Merlin | Variety Canva founders join Bill Gates’ Giving Pledge to give away most of their fortune | Sydney Morning Herald Canva partnership tackling extreme poverty in Malawi one year on | GiveDirectly Canva’s Two-Step Plan: Celebrating 10 years of impact | Canva Adobe’s new terms of service aren’t the problem — it’s the trust | The Verge ‘The general perception is: Adobe is an evil company that will do whatever it takes to F its users.’ | The Verge Why Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen thinks AI is the future | The Verge Canva corporate 'Hamilton' cringe rap presentation goes viral | YouTube Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23955121 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s almost the Fourth of July, and that means it’s time for our annual grilling episode. This year, I’m talking with Big Green Egg CEO Dan Gertsacov, who has big plans for using very modern fan-based marketing techniques to expand the market for the company’s old-fashioned, fire-burning, aspirational product. Links: Big Green Egg Appoints a New CEO | CookOut News Big Green Egg 50th Anniversary 1974-2024 | Big Green Egg Yep, Big Green Egg Just Made a Beer Keg | Gear Patrol AI could kill creative jobs that ‘shouldn’t have been there in the first place,’ OpenAI CTO says | Fortune Campfires, explained | Vox An ‘Epidemic’ of Loneliness Threatens Health of Americans | Scientific American RIP: Here are 70 things millennials have killed | Mashable “Genius of the AND” | Jim Collins Keurig's attempt to 'DRM' its coffee cups totally backfired | The Verge A Look at the Danny Meyer Documentary The Restaurateur | Eater Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23952121 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, we’re talking about politics and lobbying in America. It’s hard to imagine a time when the influence of big corporations and billionaires didn’t touch every part of American politics, but the kind of lobbying we have now didn’t really exist before the 1970s. Now, our political debates about everything from energy, finance, and healthcare are deeply intertwined with corporations and their money — and new big players in tech now spend tons of political money of their own. To understand the structure of today’s political lobbying and how we go here, I brought Pulitzer Prize winner Brody Mullins on the show. Brody has a new book he co-wrote with his brother Luke Mullins called The Wolves of K Street: The Secret History of How Big Money Took Over Big Government, which came out last month. It’s a definitive history of modern lobbying in America, told through the lens of some of the industry’s most unsavory characters and the influence they’ve exerted on DC politics across decades. Links: If Donald Trump Wins, Paul Manafort Will Be Waiting in the Wings | NYT Meta had its biggest lobbying quarter ever | The Verge Apple quietly bankrolled a lobbying group for app developers | The Verge The Many Reinventions of a Legendary Washington Influence Peddler | Politico The Wolves of K Street review: how lobbying swallowed Washington | The Guardian Big Tech Has a New Favorite Lobbyist: You | WSJ SOPA bill shelved after global protests from Google, Wikipedia and others | WashPo The Russia Inquiry Ended a Democratic Lobbyist’s Career. He Wants It Back. | NYT The Swamp Builders | WashPo The Rise and Fall of a K Street Renegade | WSJ Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Greg Peters, the co-CEO of Netflix. I caught up with Greg while he was at the Cannes Lions festival in France, which is basically the world’s biggest gathering of advertisers and marketers. It’s an increasingly important place for Greg to be, as Netflix’s new ad tier has nearly doubled in six months to more than 40 million subscribers and feels increasingly pivotal to the future of the company. On top of that, Netflix is updating its famous culture memo, and I wanted to chat with Greg about the changes he’s making to that document, and how he’s thinking about maintaining that culture as Netflix grows into things like advertising and gaming. Links: Netflix Culture Memo | Netflix Netflix Culture Memo (2009) | Netflix Streaming is cable now | The Verge Netflix’s ad tier hits 40 million users | The Verge Netflix is different now — and there’s no going back | The Verge Netflix just fired the organizer of the trans employee walkout | The Verge Netflix doesn’t want to hear it anymore | The Verge It’s hard to believe Samsung’s new, matte The Frame is actually a TV | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23946561 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’ve got a special episode of the show today – I was traveling last week, so Verge deputy editor Alex Heath and our new senior AI reporter Kylie Robison are filling in for me, with a very different kind of episode about AI. We talk a lot about AI in a broad sense on Decoder — it comes up in basically every single interview I do these days. But we don’t spend a ton of time on the day-to-day happenings of the AI industry itself. So we thought it would be a good idea to take a beat and have Alex and Kylie actually break down the modern AI boom as it exists today: The companies you need to know, the most important news of the last few months, and what it’s actually like to be fully immersed in this industry every single day. Links: Google defends AI search results after they told us to put glue on pizza | The Verge Apple is putting ChatGPT in Siri for free later this year | The Verge AI will make money sooner than you’d think, says Cohere CEO Aidan Gomez | Decoder Humane is looking for a buyer after the AI Pin’s underwhelming debut | The Verge 2024 is a year of reckoning for AI | The Verge OpenAI researcher who resigned over safety concerns joins Anthropic | The Verge Hugging Face is sharing $10M worth of compute to beat big AI companies | The Verge The AI drama is heating up | Command Line Google and OpenAI are racing to rewire the internet | Command Line Elon Musk’s xAI raises $6 billion to fund its race against ChatGPT | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tubi is a free and very rapidly growing streaming TV platform — according to Nielsen, it had an average of a million viewers watching every minute in May 2024, beating out Disney Plus, Max, Peacock, and basically everything else, save Netflix and YouTube. All those streaming service price hikes are driving people to free options, and Tubi is right there to catch them. CEO Anjali Sud joins Decoder to explain why she thinks Tubi's model "could be" profitable, and how Tubi competes not only against the premium streamers, but also against the big competitors for viewers' time: TikTok and Youtube. Links: As streaming becomes more expensive, Tubi cashes in on the value of free | Los Angeles Times Tubi’s new redesign wants to push you down the rabbit hole | The Verge Tubi Rabbit AI: ChatGPT can give you better movie recommendations | The Verge The future of streaming is free ad-supported TV and movies | The Verge It’s true: people like leaving their TVs on in the background | The Verge Stubios is the new name of Tubi’s fan-fueled studio program | The Verge Comcast has a Netflix, Peacock, and Apple TV Plus bundle coming | The Verge A Disney, Hulu, and Max streaming bundle is on the way | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23942621 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Private equity is a simple concept — a PE firm uses some combination of money and debt to buy a company, then makes a profit — but the reality of what happens to the companies that get acquired is anything but. It's everywhere, and it's not going away. In this summer remix, we're talking with Brendan Ballou, author of Plunder: Private Equity’s Plan to Pillage America, about how we got here and what happens next. Links: Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys“R”Us — here’s why that matters | The Verge Private equity and mismanagement: Here's what really killed Red Lobster | Fast Company Sony and Apollo send letter expressing interest in $26 billion Paramount buyout | NBC News Plunder: Private Equity’s Plan to Pillage America | Brendan Ballou Barbarians at the Gate: The Fall of RJR Nabisco | Bryan Borrough & John Helyar Barnes & Noble is going back to its indie roots to compete with Amazon | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cohere is one of the buzziest AI startups around right now. It's not making consumer products; it's focused on the enterprise market and making AI products for big companies. And there's a huge tension there: up until recently, computers have been deterministic. If you give computers a certain input, you usually know exactly what output you’re going to get. There’s a logic to it. But if we all start talking to computers with human language and getting human language back, well, human language is messy. And that makes the entire process of knowing what to put in and what exactly we’re going to get out of our computers different than it ever has been before. Links: Attention is all you need On the Dangers of Stochastic Parrots Introducing the AI Mirror Test, which very smart people keep failing | The Verge AI isn’t close to becoming sentient | The Conversation These are Microsoft’s Bing AI secret rules and why it says it’s named Sydney | The Verge ‘Godfather of AI’ quits Google with regrets and fears about his life’s work | The Verge Microsoft CTO Kevin Scott on Bing’s quest to beat Google | The Verge Top AI researchers and CEOs warn against ‘risk of extinction’ | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge Cara grew from 40k to 650k in a week because artists are fed up with Meta’s AI policies | TechCrunch How AI copyright lawsuits could make the whole industry go extinct | The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23937899 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. Our supervising producer is Liam James. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The art of video game design is flourishing, but it feels like a really grim time to be in the business of making and distributing games. Huge global publishers and tiny indie studios alike are facing huge financial pressures, and it doesn’t seem to be letting up anytime soon. So where did this enormous pressure come from, if consumer interest is high and sales are great? Verge video game reporter Ash Parrish joins Decoder to explain. Links: Global games market expected to grow to $189bn in 2024 | GamesIndustry.biz Why the video game industry is seeing so many layoffs | Polygon The tech industry’s layoffs and hiring freezes: all of the news | The Verge Fortnite made more than $9 billion in revenue in its first two years | The Verge Insomniac’s Spider-Man 2 Swings Past 10 Million Sold | IGN The future of Netflix games could look like reality TV | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Zoom CEO Eric Yuan — and let me tell you, this conversation is nothing like what I expected. It turns out Eric wants Zoom to be much, much more than just a videoconferencing platform. Zoom wants to take on Microsoft and Google and now has a big investment in AI – and Eric’s visions for what that AI will do are pretty wild. See, Eric really wants you to stop having to attend Zoom meetings yourself. You’ll hear him describe how he thinks one of the big benefits of AI at work will be letting us all create something he calls a “digital twin," essentially a deepfake of yourself that can go attend meetings on your behalf and even make decisions for you. I’ll just warn you: I tried to ask a bunch of the usual Decoder questions during this conversation, but once we got to digital twins going to Zoom meetings for people, well, I had a lot of followup questions. Links: Zoom gets its first major overhaul in 10 years, powered by generative AI | ZDNet An interview with Zoom CEO Eric Yuan | Stratechery / Ben Thompson Zoom is cutting about 150 jobs, or close to 2% of its workforce | CNBC Zoom meetings are about to get weirder thanks to the Vision Pro | The Verge Zoom Docs launches in 2024 with built-in AI collaboration features | The Verge Zoom rewrites its policies to make clear that your videos aren’t used to train AI tools | The Verge Zoom says its new AI tools aren’t stealing ownership of your content | The Verge Zoom adds “post-quantum” end-to-end encryption | Zoom Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23932774 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

For nearly 20 years now, the web has been Google’s platform; we’ve all just lived on it. I think of Decoder as a show for people trying to build things, and a lot of people have built their things on that platform. For a lot of small businesses and content creators, that’s suddenly not stable anymore. The number one question I have for anyone building things on someone else’s platform is: What are you going to do when that platform changes the rules? Links: How Google is killing independent sites like ours | HouseFresh HouseFresh has virtually disappeared from Google Search results. Now what? | HouseFresh Google Is Killing Retro Dodo & Other Independent Sites | Retro Dodo Google CEO Sundar Pichai on AI-powered search and the future of the web | The Verge Will A.I. Break the Internet? Or Save It? | The New York Times Google confirms the leaked Search documents are real |The Verge An Anonymous Source Shared Thousands of Leaked Google Search API Documents with Me; Everyone in SEO Should See Them | SparkToro Mountain Weekly News Telly Visions E-ride Hero That Fit Friend Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Joseph Cox, one of the best cybersecurity reporters around and a co-founder of the new media site 404 Media. Joseph has a new book coming out in June called Dark Wire: The Incredible True Story of the Largest Sting Operation Ever, and I can’t recommend it enough. It’s basically a caper, but with the FBI running a phone network. For real. Joseph walks us through the fascinating world of underground criminal phone networks, and how secure messaging, a tech product beloved by drug traffickers, evolved from the days of BlackBerry Messenger to Signal. Along the way, the FBI got involved with its very own startup, ANOM, as part of one of the most effective trojan horse operations in the history of cybersecurity. Joseph’s book is a great read, but it also touches on a lot of things we talk about a lot here on Decoder. So this conversation was a fun one. Links: Dark Wire by Joseph Cox | Hachette Book Group How Vice became ‘a fucking clown show’ | The Verge Cyber Official Speaks Out, Reveals Mobile Network Attacks in US | 404 Media Revealed: The Country that Secretly Wiretapped the World for the FBI | 404 Media How Secure Phones for Criminals Are Sold on Instagram | Motherboard A Peek Inside the Phone Company Secretly Used in an FBI Honeypot | Motherboard The FBI secretly launched an encrypted messaging system for criminals | The Verge Canadian police have had master key to BlackBerry's encryption since 2010 | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking to Google CEO Sundar Pichai, who joined the show the day after the big Google I/O developer conference. Google’s focus during the conference was on how it’s building AI into virtually all of its products. If you’re a Decoder listener, you’ve heard me talk about this idea a lot over the past year: I call it “Google Zero,” and I’ve been asking a lot of web and media CEOs what would happen to their businesses if their Google traffic were to go to zero. In a world where AI powers search with overviews and summaries, that’s a real possibility. What then happens to the web? I’ve talked to Sundar quite a bit over the past few years, and this was the most fired up I’ve ever seen him. I think you can really tell that there is a deep tension between the vision Google has for the future — where AI magically makes us smarter, more productive, more artistic — and the very real fears and anxieties creators and website owners are feeling right now about how search has changed and how AI might swallow the internet forever, and that he’s wrestling with that tension. Links: Google and OpenAI are racing to rewire the internet — Command Line Google I/O 2024: everything announced — The Verge Google is redesigning its search engine, and it’s AI all the way down — The Verge Project Astra is the future of AI at Google — The Verge Did SEO experts ruin the internet or did Google? — The Verge YouTube is going to start cracking down on AI clones of musicians — The Verge AI is killing the old web, and the new web struggles to be born — The Verge How Google is killing independent sites like ours — HouseFresh Inside the First 'SEO Heist' of the AI Era — Business Insider Google’s Sundar Pichai talks Search, AI, and dancing with Microsoft — Decoder Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23922415 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Last week, TikTok filed a lawsuit against the US government claiming the divest-or-ban law is unconstitutional — a case it needs to win in order to keep operating under Bytedance’s ownership. There’s a lot of back and forth between the facts and the law here: Some of the legal claims are complex and sit in tension with a long history of prior attempts to regulate speech and the internet, while the simple facts of what TikTok has already promised to do around the world contradict some its arguments. Verge editors Sarah Jeong and Alex Heath join me to explain what it all means. Links: TikTok and Bytedance v Merrick Garland (PDF) TikTok sues the US government over ban | The Verge Senate passes TikTok ban bill, sending it to President Biden’s desk | The Verge The legal challenges that lie ahead for TikTok — in both the US and China | The Verge Why the TikTok ban won’t solve the US’s online privacy problems. | Decoder Biden signs TikTok ‘ban’ bill into law, starting the clock for ByteDance to divest it | The Verge Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen has been at the top of my list of people I’ve wanted to talk to for the show since we first launched — he’s led Adobe for nearly 17 years now, but he doesn’t do too many wide-ranging interviews. I’ve always thought Adobe was an underappreciated company — its tools sit at the center of nearly every major creative workflow you can think of — and with generative AI poised to change the very nature of creative software, it seemed particularly important to talk with Shantanu now. Adobe sits right at the center of the whole web of tensions, especially as the company has evolved its business and business model over time. And now, AI really changes what it means to make and distribute creative work. Not many people are seeing revenue returns on it just yet and there are the fundamental philosophical challenges of adding AI to photo and video tools. What does it mean when a company like Adobe, which makes the tools so many people use to make their art, sees the creative process as a step in a marketing chain, instead of a goal in and of itself? Links: How Adobe is managing the AI copyright dilemma, with general counsel Dana Rao Adobe Launches Creative Cloud (2012) What was Photoshop like in 1994? Photoshop’s Generative Fill tool turns vacation photos into nightmares - The Verge New York Daily News, Chicago Tribune, and others sue OpenAI and Microsoft - The Verge The FAIR Act: A New Right to Protect Artists in the Age of AI | Adobe Blog Adobe’s Firefly generative AI tools are now generally available - The Verge This Wacom AI debacle has certainly taken a turn. - The Verge Transcript: https://www.theverge.com/e/23917997 Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge, and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Today’s episode was produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and was edited by Callie Wright. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices